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MS. MARY HALL'S INTERVIEW
by Thomas Dye
Thomas: Okay, so this is Mary Magdelen Hall.
Mary: Magdelen.

Thomas: She has her birth certificate of... she has her birth certificate bom .
Mary: June 7, 1919.

Thomas: June 7, 1919, she is here in the census. Her mother name was Mary Hall and she has her brother Stephen, Andoshia, Sam, Margie, Thomas, Charlie, Wilson, and you. Why don't we just start back with your mother and father, and you just tell me what you remember about your mother and father. Do you remember Rosewood at all yourself?
Mary: No.

Thomas: Yeah, cause you was just a child.
Mary: Yeah, to be truthful, I can only tell you what my mother told me. Because I asked questions and I wanted to know, cause I always talked about my daddy. And my mother told me that my daddy name was C. B. Hall and she told me that he was a Mason, and he wore these shirts with the white shirts whatever you call it (that you iron, that you don't fold), you know. These white shirts that the Mason use to wear with this fringe around the collar and all. And she said that he was a Mason. And I do know that the oldest brother Stanley was a Mason. I mean Stephen, I'm sorry. Stephen was a Mason, and Stephen he was a little minster and my father was a minister. My mother told me that he was a preacher. And I can remember when all that happened that my mother told me. And what make me fully remember was, because when all the riot started, mother said when they heard the shooting and all the commotion going on they all was going to run. One day she got up all the children and ran out, and when they got to the woods then put Charles down, then she remember it Charles for me, and she had left me back home in the house in the bed. So then she was scared that she had go back to get. And that made me always remember that, you know, because by her remember, because she had so many children, see because I remember this because I know who was at home after they got to Gainesville for a couple of years Because we all played together. Mother never allowed any other children to play with us. There was only one boy who could play with us, and his name was Chris Owens, and he grew up with my family.

Thomas: And why didn't she want the other children to play with yall?
Mary: Well, because during those years, the children didn't go run all around the streets up and down the streets playing with other children, and she didn't allow us to do that.

Thomas: To keep you close to home?
Mary: We stayed home, and we played with one another.

Thomas: Again, your father's name was ... what was his name again?
Mary: Charles.

Thomas: Isaac ... Isaac Hall?
Mary: No, Charles, my daddy Charles Bakkas Hall.

Thomas: Charles Bakkas Hall.
Mary: He signed, mother said, C.B. Hall.

Thomas: Let's start back with your parents again. What can you tell me about your parents, either what did they do for a living, or do you know if they are from Rosewood originally or did they move there?
Mary: Now, I think my mother must have been from there originally. Because my mother's maiden name is Davis. And she had two brothers, and one's name was Hardy Davis and uncle Joe Davis. I think my daddy was, as I understood, from South Carolina.

Thomas: South Carolina?
Mary: Yes, but I think mother, she was originally from Rosewood. Because her brother and family was all there.

Thomas: We have a lot of people from Rosewood and in the 19th census they show up as originating from South Carolina. I just wonder why that's seems like a lot of people move there from South Carolina.
Mary: I don't know how long my daddy been there. In talking with other people after I grew up, I was trying find out all I can about it... I don't know, cause seems like some where down the line this was going to come up again, and I wanted to remember what my mother said. And I wanted to remember about what everybody said about my daddy and the property that he had, you know.

Thomas: Do you know what he did for a living?
Mary: My daddy was farmer evidently, because we lived, as I understood that we was living on our land. You know my daddy's land, because on my daddy's land he was a fanner because I remember my oldest sister was telling me after we got grown and together and she said look at me, she said Mary one of the worse beating that I ever got was about you. She said cause momma went to the field and she told me to notice you and watch you. And you started crying and I spanked you and when I looked around my momma had got back home and standing right there looking at me, and said she tore me up, but I never did do that no more. So he's a farmer because the most of the people there they grounded cane and make syrup, and they did it on my daddy's land. He had the cane grinder with the mule that grounded the cane.

Thomas: Goes around in a circle?
Mary: Yes.

Thomas: I've seen it.
Mary: Yes, I remember, because we talked about that. Now, Margie remember that when we talked to her. And she said yeah I know my daddy. And then said Doshia use to tell me, said well Mary, my daddy use to run a store. And she said, you know, the first hat I wore was out of my daddy's store, and she use to brag on that, you know. And said the first hat I wore was from my daddy's store. That's what my sister Doshia use to tell me all the time, because she is the oldest next to Stephen.

Thomas: Now, all your brothers and sisters have passed now?
Mary: All but one, and that's Wilson. And Sammy, Sammy passed since this started because during 1984, I tried to remember dates as I learned them. That is when I searched for this video tape that was taken by 60 Minutes. And when I wrote 60 Minutes, I couldn't get to head and tail (because some people would know things, but they wont tell you). So I wrote 60 Minutes, because I saw the tape. I wrote 60 Minutes to ask they for it, but they refused to send it to me. He asked me, say well... I wrote him another letter, I said why that you can't send me the tape. So he wrote me back and said well, we don't know what to charge you for the tape. What do you want the tape for. I wrote him back a letter, and I said what do you think I want it for. I want the tape to look at it to remember my brother because he is on that tape, and he is dead now. But they didn't answer, and didn't send me the tape. But they did send me the manuscript. And I have a manuscript of it, cause the team by there to 60 Minutes and they ...

Thomas: And your brother went alone with Ed Bradley did he?
Mary: Sammy, yes.

Thomas: That was Sam? Okay.
Mary: Went alone with Ed. And he is on that tape when they all was talking on that tape. I wanted the tape, but they wouldn't, you know, just wouldn't send it to me. He told me, say well, we don't have but one. And usually we don't send out our last one. But I know if they wanted me to have it, they would have copied it and send it to me.

Thomas: Now, Sam, he apparently recalled a lot. He remembered a lot didn't he.
Mary: Oh, yeah, he remembered a lot. Because he used to tell me about my daddy, you know, and the land. Because everybody was home, cause I like to tell the truth, you know. And ah, because ah, my sister Doshia wasn't home living with us at the time and Sammy wasn't living in the house with us, but they both were living I guess down there toward Sumner (somewhere you call it down there). But they all know when the riot was because we couldn't go there. It was my mother said because they was to scared for us to come there because they was afraid they was going there and kill them too. So that everybody had to go in the woods. We couldn't go to any of the family people that lived right down to Sumner somewhere down there because they were too scared. So how they got out to get to Gainesville, cause momma talked over and over with Mr. Wright (he was a white man there) that ah helped everybody. And I understood that he contacted the train and the conductor and asked them to come pick up these children and the women, and ordered the conductor don't pick up nobody but the women and the children. No men because you don't know who you are picking up, and that's what they did. And that's how we all got to Gainesville. And in the next year, that I remember in Gainesville because we was always staying behind the train shed and the train shed was behind the Ice Plant, there on Deco Street, and we lived back there in that little old house, you know, for a long time.

Thomas: Do you remember what it looked like, the Ice Plant, or the Depot or anything?
Mary: Oh, yeah - you see, the Ice Plant was sitting great big place sitting right there on the side off Depot Street. And then on the other side was the big Ice Plant were they load box cars, you know, long years ago. When you load these box cars with the ice they had vegetable or fruit whatever he had to keep it all fresh. Because we had grew up and I can remember me and my brother all, and mother wanted some ice (because you didn't have refrigerators then, we had ice boxes), and we would go down there and we go around and get underneath the platform, and when they push the ice in there it would mesh the hold and it would fall on the ground.

Thomas: And then yall will pick it up?
Mary: Yeah, we reach up under there and pull it out, put it in the sack and then we go home and put it in our ice box.

Thomas: This was in Rosewood?
Mary: No, this was in Gainesville.

Thomas: That's in Gainesville, okay right, I see. But you don't remember, what anything looked like in Rosewood yourself?
Mary: No, I don't remember anything. The only thing I remember is what my mother told me.

Thomas: Now, you believe your father was in the sugar business? He had sugar, is that basically what he did?
Mary: Yes, because that's what they said, my mother said, and Margie and Doshia because Margie I guess she must have been around fourteen cause Margie this year (Margie was bom 1909) she is 84 years old. All of the brothers and sisters are two years apart, but I and Wilson, we are four apart exactly.

Thomas: Then your father, I guess he passed before all this happened - all this business in 23'?
Mary: Yes, he had passed, because I must have been about eight or nine years, I mean eight or nine months old or something. Because I was a baby when he died so I must have been eight months or a year or something like that when my daddy died.

Thomas: Do you know what your mother did to support yall? Did she keep the same business, or did she ...?
Mary: Yeah, she stayed on-on the business, and I don't know whether cause I know she had a little garden and I think we had milk cows, as Margie use to say there was time ... hanging on the back. And my brother Sammy, he use to help my mother with the children. He would come by there and she could go to Sumner to the commissary and she could get food to help the children, see now I remember that because he told me that. So, I'm being honest to tell you what my brothers told me.

Thomas: Okay, that fine. Okay, well and then do you remember your mother ever talking about having any cows, or hogs, or chickens, or anything like that.
Mary: Yes, yes, now I think so cause I think she had some cows or horses or hogs or whatever. If I'm not mistaking, I think so because I think they use have to clean hog hanging in the smoke house, you know. And ah, he will have to have mules or horses or whatever because he kept that to grind the cane, and well he had to have cause he had to plow to get the land up.

Thomas: Yeah, yeah right. We are just trying to get a picture of what the town was like, and what people did for a living. I mean, and that's why I'm asking all of these questions.
Mary: Well, I guess once he was living at the time, he had a store. He ran a store. And so I don't know, it must have been a dry good store or... whatever it was. But I know that my sister told me he had a store, and my mother told me that my daddy ran a store.

Thomas: Now, after all that, this business, y'all had to live in Rosewood, then how long did your mother live after that?
Mary: Oh, mother lived a long time after that. Mother lived after we left there, we lived in Gainesville for a long time, then my brothers and all, they grew up and Thomas and Charles (see cause I grew up lone with them). Margie married out young because she had so many other children. See cause Margie married into the Barnes' family, you know, that's why we know Ms. Lillie Washington because my sister married her brother.

Thomas: Do you remember what year your mother passed in?
Mary: Ah, my mother passed on my 33rd birth date and I think was, it had to have been 1953. It had to be 1953, cause 1954 is when I went to ... to stay with sister Doshia. And she died on my 33rd birth date, that's why I never could forget that, and it was on a Saturday, you know.

Thomas: And when you were in Gainesville, what did your mother do there? Did she work there?
Mary: Yes, she would go and work (cause she would cook), she would go out and work for the white people in the kitchen. And then by us children being home, whats left over for supper all that to cook they will give it to her, and she will bring it home for the children. She washed and she ironed. That's why I can iron a shirt today just like they come off the press. Because I learned how to iron with a smoothing iron sitting to the fire with logs, you know with wood. Because mother taught me how to do that, because that was our living after being in Gainesville for a while.

Thomas: So you helped her do that, too?
Mary: Oh yeah, I helped her wash and iron. I went to school (I went to school).

Thomas: You went to school in Gainesville?
Mary: Yes, well I couldn't do nothing but I wanted to. Because mother didn't have twenty-five cents to give me to take music lessons.

Thomas: And that's what you wanted to do.
Mary: Yeah, I liked music. I wanted to be an RN. Alright, I wasn't a bright enough student to go to be an RN and then had to work and do it all at the same time, you know, cause I ... now what I learned, I learned it but I have to study.

Thomas: Well, I'm the same, I'm a student too and I have to study or I wouldn't learn it either.
Mary: Yeah, because some people's is apt and some not, so I tell the truth and I'm not all that apt, but what I learned, I learned, you know. But I did go to school and I finished Lincoln High School, Gainesville, Florida, in 1940. Okay, and after - in 1970 (1975), after I couldn't ... after I got grown and was working, I see I wasn't going to be a RN. I decided that I go and take up nursing assistant, so I went to WAC and took up the nursing assistant course. And ah, now I majored in that, and I know that pretty well, and I came out of that with a B average, because I studied and I learned. So then that was the job that I worked at St. Luke Hospital and I retired from there. Not all that much money at the time, but a little is better than none. So I just went on to school. I just made myself go school because I had missed two or three years, you know with mother in washing and ironing. So I went to school and what helped me along with the school I was real apt and I believe in doing things, and I could sing. I played basketball, you know.

Thomas: You played basketball?
Mary: Oh, yeah. The last year, I was the captain of the team.

Thomas: For FJC?
Mary: No, no, no, for Lincoln High School.

Thomas: For Lincoln High School. Okay, well we will have to go back and find a old year book and see how many points you made.
Mary: (Laughing) Yeah, because ah, you wouldn't believe this because I came up here to Tallahassee when they had the tournament.

Thomas: Well lets just back then and ah — why don't you just tell me - what your mother would tell you about Rosewood. And then, did she not like for yall to talk about it then in Gainesville, or did the other neighbors around know, what happened to yall?
Mary: Well, mother didn't talk too much about it. The only people really knew by that time cause it wasn't but a few of us around there and those was the people that if they wasn't living in Rosewood they was living right so close to Rosewood down to Cedar Keys or Branson or whatever, you know, wherever it was bom there. All of the families knew each other. You know, cause then we will all, but they would talk about it and I would ask them about that. But we would talk about, but we didn't talk about it too much to anybody else. Because everybody seems to be scared to talk about.

Thomas: Were they?
Mary: Yes, but we talked about it with little few people, cause we will talk about it. And I grew up with Ms. Washington and not cause mother, now cause she used to like to go fishing not to be girlish. She would never leave us by ourself and she would let Ms. Lillie keep me until I go fishing, you know, that way we all would talk about it. But nobody didn't seem to just talk so much about that thing. Whatever talking they did it just among one another, you know. But I'm a little nosey and I would ask questions, cause I wanted to know.

Thomas: And what did you ask them?
Mary: I just asked my momma about Rosewood and I wanted to know what happened. I asked her why did they do all that and what caused that. So mother would explain to me, well they started off with Sylvester (they called his name, you know, first name) and well evidently this woman that was named Taylor said that the black man ah raped her or beat her or whatever. And she named the black man.

Thomas: Who did your mother think the man was?
Mary: Who my mother thought the man was, was the man that everybody else thought it was and that was the white man that was dating her because she had a husband. And he was her boyfriend, you know, so then you get in a jam and get caught when her husband got home, she wasn't going to name on him, she named it on the black man. So then they put out to find this man. If I can understand back in those years, Masons were Masons. They wasn't going to tell if he would have did it, whether he did or not they wasn't going to tell nobody. They wasn't going to tell the white man he did it. They couldn't tell the white man that he did do it. But they all be together and there not going to tell nobody who nobody is. So if you asked me and I didn't tell you then they will kill me because I didn't tell you where they was. And all that... that mother would talk about and I was listening. And when I talked to other people about it that was there, then they will all say the same thing. Well in this manuscript its in there. It will tell you the woman, they named that. All of that is in that manuscript and everything that mother said when they went back to Rosewood with 60 Minutes that's how I knew Ms. Minnie Langley cause. Because she went back down there with my brother then.

Thomas: They didn't ask you to go along, or they didn't find you, or you didn't want to go?
Mary: No, I was working. See my brother was living in Brunswick Georgia. Ms. Washington, Lillie regardless to what go on or what happen she gonna always tell Margie because she always stayed in contact with one another. She sent Mr. Gary Moore to Margie house in ... and Margie turned and direct him to Brunswick to Sammy, and that's when it all got started going. If I'm not mistaken that was in 1984, that was when the tape was dated, 60 Minutes. So Sam, Sammy he went on about that.

Thomas: So your mother said that she — ah did she ever tell you how she got out of Rosewood when all of this was going on, how she got yall out without getting hurt?
Mary: Yes, because when all the rioting, running, and shooting and loudness going on but they got together and passed the news around for the people to get out, the women and children say yall get out. And I understand, they told Mr. Sylvester said that they was going to come for you tonight say "you leave home and go to your parents (your mother) and yall get out of there." As I understood, he didn't, because that was their home and he wasn't going anywhere, so if they were coming to kill him so he was prepared too.

Thomas: But your mother got out before the shooting started, yall tried to get out before they got up there?
Mary: Yeah, before they got down there where we are cause you see, I understood, can hear the shooting and you can hear them all the white people (about a 100 or more), you can hear them talking cause they done said that they were coming to get them. So when night come they was going to get out there before they get down there to get them. So then that night momma run in there and got up all the children, got them all together, then took out to go to the woods and they stayed out there a night or day or so, cause they had to stay out there until they can get the train to come and get them. You couldn't be walking around in the daytime, cause they would be seen. So at night when the train ... but the train and Mr. Wright hid them around what he could do, but they was going to search his house. So then all of us had to take off. But then he made arrangement to get all the wives and the children and them out of there. So we all left the house and went to the woods.

Thomas: But your first memory and childhood begins in Gainesville?
Mary: Yes, my remembrance, cause I remember, see when I got to Gainesville then I would start talking about daddy cause see I'm a kind of family people. Anybody in the family, I learn my family, and I wanted to know about my daddy. Then mother said well he died, and then she said well you had a twin sister too. She said but yall had the thrash, and said the thrash went through her and it just... and it killed her. She said that I was able to cure you, so she cured me with the thrash, but she couldn't save my sister. Then she said well, I guess that was the way the Lord intended it to be. Because I had all these children, but daddy was living then when I bom. She said cause when I was caring for you all, I had a dream that when I was sleeping, I went fishing and I caught two fish and I just could not hold that second fish and he got away from me. So I guess that was when the Lord let me know that I was going to lose one of the twins.

Thomas: That's something. Okay, so in Gainesville did yall - were yall helped by people there when you got to Gainesville? When she cot off the train did she ever talk about that?
Mary: Yes, see when she got off the train, it so happen - see mother was a Davis- she had a brother Hardy Davis lived in Rosewood, you know, so I guess he got out however. So when we got to Gainesville she had two brothers, she had unde Hardy Davis and uncle Joe Davis. Well Joe Davis ran the fish market. So then he would naturally he would help his sister out and all the children. He had fish market and during that time you had fish head and chicken feet, you know what I mean. During those years-and I'm not shame to say cause that's the truth, you know. We had fish head, we'll eat fish heads and chicken feet, they didn't throw chicken feet away like they do now. You can go to the market and then we could have ... and then he had run the fish market so we can have sometNng to eat because he looked out for us. We lived back there in a little house behind the train ... where we all lived. Then she would do washing and ironing all back there and Wilson, Charles, and Thomas, we was all home together. Margie wasnt there too long, I don't remember Margie being home because she played with us, but all the other children and Margie was the oldest and she married real early. She must have been about fifteen or sixteen or something when she married. I don't know but I know she was young, see but from Thomas on down, we were all home together. After we got in Gainesville, cause round about, when I was about three or four years old, seems like I can remember real dearly from five to fiveand-half years old. Because Charles and Wilson them they were in school. The first school I went to in Gainesville was a Catholic school and it was taught by Ms. Jackson and it was a pay school.

Thomas: A what school?
Mary: A pay school, Catholic.

Thomas: Alright, okay.
Mary: That's the first school I went to and today I can remember the things she taught in the beginning God divided and all those things, that I could remember those things from going to school and I was real young. Then the first time I went to public school, I think I was in the fifth grade as I can remember when I started going to school, I think I was in the fifth grade. Thomas and Wilson and those they didn't go to school. They stopped and started working for Mr. Willie, but I went to school and then when I got home then I would wash and help my mother iron.

Thomas: Do you remember did your mother or your family I guess could not get very much out but did you save any photographs or anything or family or your mother? Are they all gone?
Mary: No, no, no. I didnt have a photograph of my daddy. I have one of my mother because took one of her, cause see mother lived for a long time since this. Mother passed in Chicago with Wilson, you know, so she lived a long time since then, but we had no photograph, we didn't have no dothes, no shoes, no nothing, but we just got right out of the bed, you know, and out in the woods with what we had on. So we had no dothes. We had no shoes. We had no - we didn't have nothing, but the people in Gainesville was often nice for giving us. When momma would wash and iron for people, there would be pretty dresses and I always was kind of small and neat, and my feet seems to be the smallest of the family so I could wear the dothes and the shoes. So I always got dothes, cause when they would see us around and they would bring a dress and mother would iron it-and this is the truth and I would say "that's a pretty dress, I wish that somebody would give it to me." When she brings the dothes back for momma to wash and do again, she will bring that dress just like it was ironed and momma say "give this to the girl, I think she can wear this." And that's when I got the most of my dothes.

Thomas: Did your mother ever talk about what yall's house was like in Rosewood? What yall had there or compared in Gainesville, was it smaller in Gainesville or did she have a large one, or did she have something like that?
Mary: Oh, I know about Gainesville because when I come to remember, we were right where we was when we left Rosewood, and that was just like a little old-little house like a kitchen and a bedroom, you know, like a two - four rooms something like that. A little old house, and ah, but my daddy's was a big house. It was a big two-story house. Mother use to talk about that. Margie and Doshia used to talk about that. I remember the other day, when I said "Margie don't you remember what happened in Rosewood?" And she said "sure I remember", and I said well why don't you talk about it, cause when they come here to talk to you it seems like you freeze up. And she said well, I was just so scared and when she starting talking about it to white people it looks like it all leaves her.

Thomas: But she doesn't like to talk about it still?
Mary: She'll talk about it but she forgets. She will talk about the very thing she knows it will leave, it might be yes, or it may be no, it might no, and it might be yes, but that's the way her mind runs. After she lost—she had one child, when she lost her husband, when she lost her son then she got worse. Now she is really just physically sick now with her body, because she has rheumatism and then she needs her cataract needs to be moved, you know what I mean. You can't do nothing with her, I tries to, you know, and this is the truth, see my sister has this theoretic complex that I know everything. She said "well you went to school and I didn't go to school." I said "Margie that doesn't have anything to do with that," and I said "why you act like that," well you just think you know everything, but I said well at least I know something, you know but that's the way she act, but she doesn't disturb me. I said well okay, I'm just going back in the room and get ready. Then she say now [?] and I said "Margie why you say that" and she said "did I say that," and I said yes. Oh well Mary don't pay me know mind, you know how my mind is, you know, because her mind just goes and come. But she knows about it but to get a straight answer and her to tell you about it you can't, and this is the truth.

Thomas: When yall lived in Gainesville, did yall ever go back towards Rosewood and look for yall's property?
Mary: No, thank God, we never went back there again.

Thomas: Never go back to Levy county?
Mary: No sir, momma wouldn't went back there, someone come by there to talk to momma and told her so well yall had a lot of land down there, said well are you going back down there? If I can understood, momma said "who me going back down there," she say well if you are not going back you want to sign some papers ...

Thomas: When was this?
Mary: That being years ago, years after this happened I guess.

Thomas: This was a white man or black men asking her to sign those papers?
Mary: I think it was some white men, I think it was. They wanted her to sign some papers, cause Wilson and I was talking about it the other day and I know I remember cause I didn't actually see them because t be playing, you know, and when somebody come regardless of where they were white or black we could not stand there to listen, we had to go play or go somewhere cause we could'nt stand there. You would never stand and hear a conversation cause she wouldn't let us do it Only time we hear something, and I was nosey, I would sneak around the house or go through the house to see if I can hear what they were saying, you know. But like the years somebody come there, I couldn't stand there and hear what they was going to say to my momma, because she didn't allow us children to do that.

Thomas: But she, you never went back there, she never went back?
Mary: I know we never did go back there, cause she never talked about it to anybody about going back there.

Thomas: Until your brother went back with 60 Minutes?
Mary: That's the only time that anybody in the family ever went back there. And he talked about the land, he said "well gosh I couldn't hardly tell my daddy's land from nothing else, because its all fenced in and it all fenced off and they got the hunting thing," all that, you know, what he talked about it was down there. But I know mother never went back down there, and I said one time that I would like to go down there. When I was working before I retired there was a lady from Bronson she gave out - something come up and I don't know why but whatever conversation come up I would always put a word in, and I said "well I know I am a poor girl," I say that's alright, and I say "I'm poor," so they was talking about like and dislike and I said I don't want to hate nobody, I say cause I say I think I want to see my father's face and I said you can't go to heaven, you can't be saved and hate, because I say cause hate will destroy you. And I said now, if I had a reason to hate, I said I do have a reason to hate the white man, but I said I can't hate all the white people because of one or two white people, you know, I said you can't do that and I said well I don't hate anybody. I said I pray to not to hate anybody, I said because you can't dislike everybody because ... these people don't know anything about what went on down there. I said I can't hate every white man because of what they did, you know, I said thank the Lord to let me live and I'm out of there, you know. So then she said, then said where you bom?, and I said Florida, and she said you bom in Florida, and I said yes and Georgia people say well you don't have the Florida accent, and I said well then I don't know what kind I have, and they say well, what your family ... I said know my daddy was from South Carolina, and they said well that"s probably where you get a accent from, you know, well I never could talk. I never could do much of talking. I do a little better now cause I make myself ... you know. She said well, I tell you what and she say well, you said you from Rosewood, and I said my home is in Rosewood, Levy county. I said you from Bronson and she said yeah, and I said my home is Rosewood, and she said where, and I said Lord nobody stays there now. She said no and I said we all had to leave our land because they run us off because they had a big riot. And she said well have you tried to do anything about it? And I said no, and she said well, why don't you just try, she said. Well I'm going to give you a judge name and I'm going to give you a lawyer's name, and she said now he's a Judge (I think it was Judge Smith. I have it in my book now) Smith and the lawyer's name. She said why don't you write them. Maybe you could to him, maybe they could get together or something and help you out on that. Then she gave me her name and telephone number, but see now since I'm trying to do right, I pray about a thing and wait for the spirit, you know, wait for God's spirit to move and about time I had mind made up that I was going to write a letter that was when Minnie Lee and them started out all over again with the paper and the talk show. So then, I said well thank the Lord you are always good to me. Whenever I wanted to do something, he always steps in and I don't have to do someone else would do it for me.

Thomas: Now did you go on the ...?
Mary: Talk show.

Thomas: Talk show, were you on the Murray Povich?
Mary: No, I didn't do that.

Thomas: That was Ms. Langley ...
Mary: That was Langley and Lee Ruth.

Thomas: Langley and Lee Ruth, okay.
Mary: Thaf s when the confusion started out things, but nothing confused me about it because I know Rosewood was my home and my home. Cause you know, I am the only survivor they could be talking about the only survivor in their family, it doesn't mean that they're the only survivors from Rosewood, you know what I mean.

Thomas: No, right.
Mary: Now that's the way I took it. That's why I asked these questions because I couldn't understand when they were talking about who side you have a meeting, or who side you are going to be on.

Thomas: Sorry, I don't understand, what those that mean?
Mary: Well that's what I said. I was going to ask, so last night when we were having a meeting and I said, you know, yall get me confused (I'm just saying what had at the meeting last night), cause this is the truth, and I said I don't understand cause I'm saying this because its all concerning of Rosewood and about that. And I said cause yall seem to get in a problem about who like and who don't like. And I said you can look at me now but I don't look like you want me to look. I said but I can't help that, that will be there problem. I said, you can't look at a person and ask because what side I'm on, I said, I'll tell you what side I'm on, I said I'm on the Hall's side.

Thomas: The Hall's side?
Mary: Hall's side.

Thomas: Yeah.
Mary: You know, and I said ah, I can't be on the Carrier's side, I'm not a Carrier. I said, I can't be on the McCoy or no other side, 1 said, the only side I'm on is the Hall's side. I said, cause I don't know anything about your side, and I can't say nothing about that. I said, only you the only one can talk about the Carrier's side and I said, I think maybe yall need to kind of get this thing straight here. I said it seems like you, somebody accused somebody. It seems like it getting be some kind of dispute. I thought we were up here (we wasn't up here to have no dispute on about who like who or who).

Thomas: Who likes who?
Mary: Yeah.

Thomas: What does that mean. I sorry, what do you mean by ...?
Mary: You know about who likes who cause it be in a way when you are talking about something, about who likes who, you know. People like me like two sides of things. See I'm on the Hall's side. Well, okay, naturally I'll be on the Hall's side. I can't do a thing about no other side. I can't talk about nobody but the Hall's side, you know what I mean. So I'm not going to say nothing bout nobody - I can't try - its nothing I can say to harm the Carriers because I don't know anything about them, cause they are not my family. That's part to understand that I'm trying to get while I'm up here, you know. Cause, I'm up here because this is important and that's why I asked to be excused tomorrow, cause see I joined the Masonic family and I'm a worthy Mason. We have a workshop Saturday.

Thomas: Is that part of the Prince Hall Mason?
Mary: Prince Hall.

Thomas: And is that what your daddy was in?
Mary: Yeah, my daddy, yeah he was a Mason.

Thomas: You don't know the lodge or the number or anything that was down there do you?
Mary: No, I don't because it all got burned up. Everything got burned up, my mother couldn't remember no number, no hall, or no number. She couldn't remember none of that. But I know was at Prince Hall, he was a Mason. And my brother Stephen was a Prince Hall, but he joined in Miami. So that made it easier for me because that's where my daddy and I gather, you know, cause its only sisters and mothers and widows.

Thomas: Now as far as you know, when your daddy passed in Rosewood, he was buried there in the town somewhere in the ...?
Mary: Yes, he would of had to buried there in the grave.

Thomas: Did your mother ever talk about where he was buried or anything?
Mary: No because you know right shortly after then I guess all of this other thing come up, you know, then she was around there with the children, you know, for us to live and trying to take care of us because we had a good mother around to take care of us, you know, so she never did talk about that and there was nothing that we could say about cause everything we had pictures, clothes, and everything we had we lost it.

Thomas: You lost it?
Mary: Yeah, we lost it.

Thomas: Did your mother ever mention any names in Rosewood or either a friend she had, or other maybe white people living in Rosewood or there was only black people living in Rosewood?
Mary: She only, she often talked about Mr. Wright. Now that's the only white person that knew that she used to talk about Mr. Wright, because Mr. Wright had a store. Cause see after my daddy died then he would help them out. I heard my brother say that momma used to do a little work or something for Mr. Wright, I think but I don't know because I never asked mother that, because I was so busy asking her other things. But I know he had a farm or whatever there and he had a smoke house. They had a big two-story house, you know.

Thomas: Then after he passed away yall moved into another house?
Mary: No, not that I know of.

Thomas: Okay and ah, so you just saying that your father, he had this two-story house and that yall stayed in.
Mary: Yeah, he had a big two-story house and we still lived there because it was a lot of us children. It was nine of us children. So it took a big house for us.

Thomas: Well, tell me about in Gainesville as you grew there. Did yall ever experience any problems or anything in Gainesville with the folks there, with the white folks there, or anything or did yall ...?
Mary: No, cause all the white people seems to ah - was kind of nice to us, and nice to my mother. She never had any, we never had any problems with the white people. Now after we moved from Gainesville after mother married again to Henry Price, we moved down to side camp out from Bellevue cause we were staying off from the side camp and at the time they didn't have a house right there on the quarters, so when we moved from Bellevue out there, we had to move on the big nice white house sitting out on the - it was a dirt road, but it was about a mile perhaps so from the quarters (still quarters). While that's were he put us until they got a house, so we were there maybe for about a week, and late one night, I guess about 12 o'clock or more, and ah, someone was knocking (I had went to sleep), we heard someone bam, bam, bam, knocking on the door, and then ah, I always jumps up and my mother and Mr. Henry, they stood to the door and he asked who it was, and they didn't give any names and they said well, we want to talk to you. He asked, say well what you want, and he said well come out here cause we want to talk to you, and he said no, I'm not coming out there, say if you want to talk you will have to tell me, cause I'm not coming out there. So they told him then, say well, you get out here because no nigers stay (live) in this house out here, this nice house and yall get out here and yall be out of here by tomorrow. So that night,

Thomas: Now, this was in Bellevue, Florida?
Mary: It was in Bellevue a camp, a little side camp out from Bellevue.

Thomas: And about what year was this?
Mary: Well, that must have been in the twenty something, that must have been twentyseven or something like that, because it wasn't way up in the year

Thomas: And what was your family doing there, what kind of. camp or? . was it a lumber
Mary: Well, you see, after she married Henry Price, he was a turpentine man, he chipped the boxes. So he would go up to the turpentine and stay there. I dont know if he couldn't get alone with the people, he was there for a while then he will leave and go to another camp, and that will be dragging us alone. So in this particular time, everybody got out there that night and momma was all scared all over again. And ah, I was a bigger girl then. So mother got up she and Mr. Henry, cause at that time you kept up with a big trunk and everything that you owned was in that trunk. So when you moved the trunk, you moved everything, you know, but the little few clothes you had in the house. They got up that night and I looked at mother, she helped Mr. Henry. They got together and dragged that trunk and carried it out, way out, in the woods from the house in some bushes, and then they covered it all over where it couldn't be seen. Then we got in the dirt road, cause we had to walk down to the camp, that time of night. Now, I remember all of that, I was in that. And we walked down there to the camp that night and we stayed down there, but he made arrangements for us ...

Thomas: They didn't want yall to live up in the house. They wanted yall to be in the camp?
Mary: Yeah, they didn't want us living in the house, but those was some other white people that just didn't want it. It was not the boss man. It was just other white people, they didn't mean for us to be staying up there. So then we moved. So then immediately then the boss man, he finally got a house down there and they picked a house and we moved down there on the quarters where all the other colored people was, and I remember that little incident. Now, that's the only one I remembered we having, but then after then we moved back to Gainesville, well Mr. Henry he died and there was nobody there in the house. Wilson left and nobody was home but me and momma. I went to school, after school I had a job working making a $1.50 a week. I worked that job and then the people from Gulf Hammock (they call it), you know, they had a basket factory there in Gainesville.

Thomas: A what kind of factory?
Mary: A basket factory, where they made baskets and crates ... or whatever. Everybody was working to the basket mill, so I'm a person that I think if another woman can do it, I can to. So I put in for it too-l was going to quit this little $1.50 a week work, I was out of school then, okay, so I went down to the mill to apply for a job and I have always been lucky, thanks the Lord so they hired me, because they would teach you how to lay those staves. They hired me, that's when I got my first social security card, and from that day on, I remembered that number by heart. I went to work there, they taught me how to lay them staves and when I learned they paid me 35 cents per hour. And that was round twenty a ...

Thomas: It was better than a $1.50 a week.
Mary: It was you know, because at the end of the week in five days, I made around about twenty dollars. I was rich, I thought I was a millionaire and I paid the rent and paid the grocery bill for my mother cause there was nobody home then but she and I. She would get one of the children at night, she would come down there and bring me my dinner cause I worked from 5 to 12 at night on that shift.

Thomas: That was hard work there?
Mary: It was hard work, but it wasn't hard to me cause when I learn something, I learn it. I learned how to lay them staves. I learned how to run the machine. I learned how to put the lugs in to lay the things on, but my real job what I learned was laying them staves, and I was staying there when 5:00 o'clock whistle blow, I would have my hand with a stave. I could run that machine twenty minutes without stopping, pulling in and pulling out the bad staves, because if you put one in that's too short you got to pull it out and put another one in before it get down with the good staves, and I could do that. And I got good praises for that, and then when I left there I went to Miami, and I remember when the boss told me if I ever wanted a job, I can always come back there. I always had a job.

Thomas: Ain't that's nice.
Mary: So, I've been working all my days.

Thomas: And where did you finally retire from, when did you stop working?
Mary: 1986.

Thomas: That's not too long ago.
Mary: Yeah, 1986, I retired 1986 from St. Luke Hospital, and I worked parttime too at St. Vincent Hospital and then I turned in my resignation in 1989 from St. Vincent. So, I am not working anywhere now. I could have still been working, but I prayed and asked the Lord if I ever get a certain age, whatever money I get, I just thank the Lord for it. I was seventy years old when I retired.

Thomas: And how old are you now?
Mary: I'm seventyfour. And there is sometimes, I think about my age, but I never think that I'm seventyfour cause I have no complaints cause I don't... you know what I mean.

Thomas: You feel good hum?
Mary: Yes, I feel good, so I dont have no complaints so it doesn't bother me. So I just walk when I used to work and they said Daniels (we all call a person by there last name), they said you, you better slow down. Why don't you just sit down, you make us nervous walking, and I said, well you better come down here and see about your patient because if I hadnt got down they were going to be on the bed and its your patient and not mine, you know, and I was a real good nursing assistant. And so I worked there and I was liked, we had a good time. So in 1989, I retired, I just turned in my resignation at St. Vincent Hospital, so I just dont work anymore. Sometimes a friend or somebody wants me to come and sit...or stay with their mother, or keep somebody, but I dont do any work that's getting a job that's going to interfere when mean taking out money for my social security because I don't get but a little bit, and I'll need it where I can live off of that cause whenever I want something, I work, I got good credit, and I have credit cards and whatever I want I use my card. When I came down here, I went to the bus station, I got a round trip ticket and I used my Discover card. I asked them in the beginning will I get a senior citizen discount. Now, just because, I'm not saying I didn't have to pay for this, but just because I didn't think had I to pay for it, that didn't make me not to try to get the cheapest, cause if I can get senior citizen then I think I should get it.

Thomas: Sure.
Mary: And I got it, you know.

Thomas: I sure, the Florida tax payers appreciate that too.
Mary: Sure, so instead of paying $42.00 for a round trip ticket, my ticket was only $37 and a few cents, you know. So I got, I don't make no difference I'm saving, I'm saving myself cause I just don't follow the scriptures. When you think you are beating someone else or getting by, you are not getting by, and that's the way I feet about it.

Thomas: Is there anything important that you feel you need to tell about Rosewood? Now, anything you feel that your mother, your brother, or your sisters told you that you feel is important for us know, that you want to add on?
Mary: No, not really, not really, because we didn't do anything to be put out, when we had to move, it was all because, you know what I mean.

Thomas: Yeah.
Mary: So, its nothing for me to say about that, I just thank the Lord that we got out of there saved. And thank the Lord that he let me live this far, and I doing alright, you know, I'm not hungry ... so I thank the Lord for it.

Thomas: Well, okay, from your perspective, you have seen all, so much in the sixties and the Civil Rights Movements and you remember all that when Dr. King marched and now we come passed that, and now we have new riots in L.A. and things, things get ah, maybe they are getting bad again, I don't know, I hope not. Who, what do you feel, is it better today, I mean are people getting alone better today and what you think? What do you see for the future? Do you think there is hope for the future, for people to get alone?
Mary: To tell you the truth, I don't see where the world is getting any better, cause from my point of view, it is the young people and it seems to be the black people. Now, its the white people too, you know, what I mean, but it is really embarrassing to me because since the integration, since that opened up for us be integrated and being together seem like we should act better, seem like we should act like we appreciate it and not try to take advantage of it. That's the way I feel, you don't take advantage of it, you know, I don't go when I go somewhere, I don't go because revenge just because integration and I can go now, because I use to couldn't go, see I don't believe in all that. I believe in just being fair, you go because you want to go. If you don't want to go, don't go, but don't go to try to start a riot, you know, just because you got hatred in your heart for somebody else See those type of people needs to pray, and ask God, ask for a guidance. And then, one other thing, see parents don't raise the children like our parents raised us. See the children talk back at the parents and then I blamed the law, the law stopped the parents from when you whipped a child then they go and put the parents in jail because they say its child abuse. My momma whipped me and whipped all night and all day long and nothing was said about, whipped me and brothers and all, but you can't do it now. I know a woman she whipped her child (she was a girl), and she told her, if you hit me again, I'll go and I will report you, and she did. And I said, I blame some of it on the law, I do, cause when parents can't whip children cause they abuse, but yet and still the father abuse the children, you know, and the police force abuse the children, they kills them but the parents can't whipp'em, but when they do something they kill'em and nothing will be done about it, you know, and I really don't think the world is getting any better. We just need to pray, and ask the Lord and invite the Lord in really and truly.

Thomas: Thank you very, very much, that will do

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